The Jerry Springer Show

Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: Thank you.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: Thank you very much.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you very much. Welcome to the show.
What would you do--what would you do if the person you loved told you that they wanted to join a cult that supports suicide, cannibalism and even eating the flesh of aborted babies?
Well, in a moment we're going to meet a woman who actually says she wants to join this cult. But first, let's meet the founders, Reverend Chris Korda, Pastor Kim and Vermin X.
Give me four things that you believe in. What are the basic tenets of your philosophy?
Rev. Chris Korda (Leader of the Church of Euthanasia; Wants People to Kill Themselves): We're going to s--we're going to get to the four pillars of the Church of Euthanasia. You already know what they are. They're suicide, abortion, cannibalism and sodomy.
Springer: Well, tell me--yeah, what is it? Wait a second, say that again.
Rev. Korda: Suicide...
Vermin X: Suicide...
Rev. Korda: ...abortion...
Vermin X: ...abortion...
Rev. Korda: ...cannibalism...
Vermin X: ...cannibalism...
Rev. Korda: ...and sodomy.
Vermin X: ...and sodomy.
Rev. Korda: That's right. And we're going to explain every one of them in great detail here.
Springer: And this is--this is a faith? This is--this...
Vermin X: Sodomy and cannibalism.
Rev. Korda: This is--this is an organized religion, OK?
Springer: And this has to do with environmentalism?
Rev. Korda: Yes, it does, and we're going to explain it in great detail.
Vermin X: It sure does.
Springer: This--this isn't recycling cans, you're talking about suicide.
Rev. Korda: That's right, and it's funny you should mention that.
Vermin X: Recycling humans.
Rev. Korda: ...it's funny you should mention that, OK?
Springer: OK, look what you said on the air. This is what you said--I'm quoting you--Reverend, this is what you said...
Rev. Korda: OK, Jerry, listen to me.
Springer: ...on the air--you said this in LA in a radio address--and I'm quoting: "If you are depressed or ill or feel burdened by today's world problems, let me suggest a way to give your life new meaning: Kill yourself."
That g--"Do it now, if you have a gun, razor, whatever."
You're telling me--OK--you're telling me that's going to make the...
Rev. Korda: We're talk--listen to me, Jerry--Jerry, we're talking about an all-out industrial assault on the planet in the last 400 years.
Springer: How does that give your life new meaning if you take your life? There's no meaning, then.
Rev. Korda: OK, let's--let's talk a little bit about this. OK, w--I want to ask you something, Jerry--I want to ask you something: How many humans do you think there are on the planet right now?
Springer: Two billion...
Rev. Korda: Give me a guess.
Springer: Two--between two, three billion.
Rev. Korda: You're not even close. There are six billion humans.
Springer: OK.
Rev. Korda: How long do you think it takes for the population to increase by one million?
Springer: There's a--I forgot to count.
Rev. Korda: Come on, somebody give it to me. Is it a week? Is it a month? Is it a day? How long to increase by one million?
Springer: Explain your can--so you think you're going to reduce the population in the world by, one, preaching cannibalism, that we should all go around eating each other? What are you, crazy? You are nuts.
Rev. Korda: The Church of Euthanasia...
Vermin X: ... (Unintelligible).
Rev. Korda: OK, I just want--if we're going to talk about...
Springer: You have--you have a brochure that says this...
Rev. Korda: Well, if we're going...
Springer: ...this is what your brochure says--and I'm not making this up; I'm reading from your guide--it says: "This is a step-by-step guide on how to break down the human body from full figure into serviceable choice cuts of meat. A certain amount of fat is desirable..."
Rev. Korda: OK. Get the veal cow. Bring up the veal cow, OK?
Springer: "...as marbling to"--I mean...
Rev. Korda: OK, this is...
Springer: ...the manual gives specific instructions for body preparation, hanging, bleeding, beheading, skinning, gutting. What--it's...
Rev. Korda: OK, this is a farming state, am I right?
Springer: You're what?
Rev. Korda: This is a farming state, so you all know what this is already, right? This is a veal cow. This c--this animal lives its entire life in a tiny pen, chained, unable to take a single step, force-fed.
Springer: You know what? Become a vegetarian.
Rev. Korda: You know something?
Springer: If you don't want to eat meat, don't eat meat.
Rev. Korda: OK.
Pastor Kim (Minister from the Church of Euthanasia): OK, that's it. Here, take this. Jerry?
Springer: Yes?
Pastor Kim: In the last 300 years we've killed 300 species of animals. In the next 100 years we're going to kill one-half of the remaining species of animals. God did not make the world for man alone! We are not here to put concrete and asphalt down on the whole surface of the Earth!
Springer: Yeah.
Pastor Kim: You believe in a chauvinistic world where man is the only person who is allowed to determine life and death! God made all the creatures on the Earth to express his joy! He did not make this world for man alone!
Springer: You know what? OK, OK, OK. Have a seat. I will tell you to have a seat. OK, I'm not--no one is suggesting to you that if you don't want to kill animals you should. Fine, don't. Don't even--fine, don't...
Pastor Kim: We are going to kill one-half of the remaining species...
Springer: ...but don't go around suggesting...
Pastor Kim: ...in the next 100 years.
Springer: OK. I know. I understand.
Pastor Kim: All the rain forests will disappear.
Rev. Korda: You know, Jerry, I don't you--I--I...
Pastor Kim: Wake up, Jerry! This is it! It's now!
Springer: Relax. Relax. OK. All right.
Rev. Korda: Jerry, I don't think you're clear on the concepts here.
Springer: Hey, you know what? You know, if--if you don't want to go around killing other animals, that's good. I respect that.
Pastor Kim: Everybody else is.
Springer: Hold on. Shh.
Pastor Kim: Six billion people are killing the animals!
Springer: OK.
Pastor Kim: We have to wake up and we have to make...
Springer: OK. So why is the answer...
Pastor Kim: ...we have to bring it to a halt now!
Springer: Shh. OK.
Pastor Kim: We only have 100 years.
Springer: Why is the answer--answer this question.
Rev. Korda: OK. You're...
Springer: Don't get so excited. Relax. Here's my question for him. Let...
Rev. Korda: Here we go. We're going to answer the question.
Springer: Here's my question for him: Why is it necessary, then--but why is it necessary--y--you don't want to hurt the animals, I appreciate that--but why is it necessary to fulfill your belief that y--y--people have to commit suicide or human beings have to go around eating each other?
Rev. Korda: Here's the deal.
Springer: Cannibalism, why is that necessary?
Rev. Korda: Jerry, let me explain that.
Springer: If you don't want to kill animals, don't kill animals. But don't kill people.
Rev. Korda: He--here's why, Jerry. Listen to me.
Springer: Hm.
Rev. Korda: Why? Hold on. Hold on. Why did I bring up the veal cow? Because humans are cruel to animals? No. Because humans are animals. That's what this is about. If we sit you down at a table and put pig flesh and human flesh in front of you and blindfold you, you won't be able to tell the difference, because flesh is flesh. Why don't you think about that the next time you bite into your cheeseburger? We're talking about a massive system of cruelty...
Springer: No. OK, but...
Rev. Korda: ...in which animals are exploited and destroyed.
Springer: ...no one is going to suggest to you...
Vermin X: Go ahead, take the blindfold challenge.
Rev. Korda: Yeah, take the blindfold challenge. You won't be able to tell the difference, OK?
Springer: OK. Nobody is ever going to suggest to you that you have to go around eating animals.
Rev. Korda: We are the veal, Jerry. I'm t--you think that's funny--you think that's funny, but it's true. Listen to me. Listen to me, OK? It's not just that. We're not just talking about that.
Springer: I'll be honest with you, except for Elsie, I've never seen a cow in a dress.
Rev. Korda: That's cute.
Springer: Huh?
Rev. Korda: No, that's real cute. That--that's real cute. But the truth of the matter is that we're not just talking about the humiliation and degradation of animals; we're talking about the humiliation and degradation of ourselves. I want you to take a look at yourself for a minute.
Springer: You don't think this is degrading, what you just said here in your--
Rev. Korda: You know what I think is degrading? I think humans being packed into buses and trains and being forced to go to jobs where they have to perform the same repetitive motions over and over again, day after day, where their freedom of movement is restricted, where they are--where they're forced to breathe conditioned air--I think that is--is--is degrading, OK?
Springer: OK. OK.
Pastor Kim: How many of you work in cubicles?
Rev. Korda: How many of you work in cubicles?
Pastor Kim: How many of you work in cubicles? How many of you die every day in a lousy cubicle with reconditioned air?
Rev. Korda: How many of you sit in traffic? Hello!
Springer: OK.
Rev. Korda: Are we t--are we talking about three and a half million people in the city of Chicago?
Springer: All right, I--I grant it. OK. All right, hold on, Reverend. Listen...
Rev. Korda: OK? Are we talking about waiting?
Springer: ...you said that--wait--you're talking about degradation.
Rev. Korda: That's right.
Springer: Let's just talk about this: Why is this not degradation? You are saying in your brochure, which you hand out to your followers or the people you recruit, quote, "You need not bother skinning"--this is of a human being now--"you need not bother skinning the hands and feet, these portions not being worth the effort unless you plan to pickle them or use them in soup. The skin can be disposed of or made into fried rinds. Boil the strips and peel away the outer layer. They can..."
Rev. Korda: OK, hold on. Hold on, Jerry.
Springer: What the hell! You don't think this is degrading to human beings? What's wrong with you?
Rev. Korda: Have you ever--Jerry--Jerry, have you ever killed anything?
Springer: What?
Rev. Korda: Have you ever killed anything?
Springer: Have I ever killed anything?
Rev. Korda: Yeah, have you ever killed anything?
Springer: N--I probably stepped on an ant as I'm walking down the street.
Rev. Korda: OK, have you ever killed anything and ate it?
Springer: I've--I've never gone hunting or...
Rev. Korda: Did you eat the ant?
Springer: The what?
Rev. Korda: Did you ever eat--did you eat the ant?
Springer: Not unless it was mistakenly in my burger.
Rev. Korda: OK. So have you ever killed anything for food, OK? But have you ever killed anything for food?
Springer: I have eaten animals that have been killed.
Rev. Korda: No, have you ever killed anything?
Springer: Have I ever? No.
Rev. Korda: OK. Has anyone here ever killed anything for food? Raise your hand if you've killed something and eaten it.
Springer: OK. Now--OK.
Rev. Korda: Oh, we got one hand. OK, I want to tell you something. That's obscene. You--all think that's it's OK to just sit at--sit down in that fast-food place...
Springer: Hey! Listen--listen...
Rev. Korda: ...and chow on that steak burger, but, listen, you've never killed anything in your life.
Springer: ...how many times do we have to tell you this? If you don't want to kill animals to eat...
Rev. Korda: No, it's not about that!
Springer: ...no one's going to argue with you! I'm telling you...
Vermin X: And if you don't want to eat human flesh, you don't...
Rev. Korda: You don't want to eat human flesh. You don't have to!
Springer: ...you don't go around killing people to eat.
Vermin X: You don't have to eat human flesh either!
Rev. Korda: You don't have to eat human flesh if you don't want to, Jerry, OK?
Springer: Next, "Grace" says she wants to join this cult. Her ex-boyfriend says he's shocked. He's here to make his plea and says he'll do anything it takes to stop her. Will he succeed? We'll find out. Stay with us.
(Announcements)
Springer: Welcome back. Thank you. Welcome back. We--if you just joined us, we've been talking to this cult that believes in--they--they say they're an environmental group, but they believe in cannibalism, they believe in suicide, and--you know, pretty rough group.
Please welcome Grace to the show. She says she knows perfectly well what she's getting into and still wants to join this cult. Here's Grace.
Why? Why--why would you want to j--I mean, you're--you're watching them. Why would you want to join this?
Grace (Wants To Join the Church of Euthanasia): We're living in desperate times right now. The overpopulation problem is extreme.
Springer: Don't have kids.
Grace: I'm not going to have kids.
Springer: OK.
You know, if you decide--if you decide you don't want to have children, you don't have to join a cult for that. Just decide, "Nah, I don't think I'm going to have children."
Grace: This is one of the only groups that is going out in public and bringing up this issue. This is...
Springer: But they're bringing up the issue of cannibalism. They're bringing up the issue of suicide.
Pastor Kim: If you're a Democrat, you don't just say, "Oh, I'm a Democrat." You go out and poll.
Rev. Korda: That's right.
Pastor Kim: You get your opinion across. The Jerry Springer Show goes on television and it's--goes to five million people every day to get ideas across. That is our--our job. We are a federally recognized educational foundation. We have--we have a purpose in life.
Springer: You are asking people to kill themselves. That's more than a belief.
Pastor Kim: Go to the globe. What happened...
Springer: All right, let's take a look now...
Pastor Kim: People are killing themselves.
Springer: Grace, you're thinking of joining this group.
Grace: Yes.
Pastor Kim: Screwball.
Springer: Let's take a look at a video of them in action.
Rev. Korda: OK, look at the video.
Springer: Take a look at this.
(Excerpt from videotape)
Vermin X: Friends, God gives life and God takes it away, and that is why God is in that clinic today, because it is God's will that these women have abortions! It is God's will that these fetuses are aborted! It is God's will!
Today we hope to invoke the wisdom and justice of the sacred abortionist. And in defense of women, we scoff at these hysterical Christians! That's right, we scoff at you!
(End of excerpt)
Springer: All right, Grace, here is your boyfriend, "Chuck." Let's bring Chuck out.
Chuck, what do you want to say to Grace? She wants to join this cult.
Chuck (Grace's Ex-lover; Doesn't Want Grace To Join A Suicide Cult): What are you thinking of? I mean, it's like a--this is like a wall-to-wall hoedown of the damned. I mean, golly!
Pastor Kim: People like Chuck disgust me.
Grace: Yeah, Chuck...
Pastor Kim: You know what people are doing to this world? This is the most disgusting thing in the world (aims squirt bottle globe and squirts globe).
Grace: Listen, I want to tell you something about my relationship with Chuck.
Springer: This is...
Pastor Kim: Our world is dying. Each one of you kill the world!
Chuck: Hey, hey, hey, you're going--you're going to mess up the rug. Put that down.
Springer: OK.
Chuck: Put that down.
Springer: OK.
Chuck: Jiminy Christmas.
Pastor Kim: That's it, folks.
Grace: Chuck--Chuck, you're...
Springer: OK, wait a second. Don't you admit sh--don't you admit that they are just looney tunes?
Chuck: You know, they...
Springer: Come on, be honest, Grace. Grace?
Grace: Jerry, you haven't let me get--none of you have let me get a word in edgewise.
Springer: Let's hear from Grace.
Grace: I look out at all of you and you seem like looney tunes to me. Don't you see what is going on in the world? Don't you see how overpopulated it is? Don't you see there's something wrong?
Chuck: Ye--yes, but...
Grace: They're the only people saying something about it.
Springer: Wait--wait a second! Well then, fine--fine, if you think the world--I'll say it again--if you think the world's overpopulated, then don't have children, but why preach suicide? Why preach cannibalism?
Pastor Kim: Because everybody else--everybody else...
Springer: What the hell's wrong with you?
Pastor Kim: In 100 years100 years...
Grace: Jerry?
Pastor Kim: ...all the species in the world are going to die. They will never be recovered! In 100 years! It's not enough just for a few casual people--decide not to have children.
Grace: Part of what's going on here is a twist has been put on the message of the church. The church has one commandment: Thou shalt not procreate. I am here...
Rev. Korda: Thou shalt not procreate!
Grace: So take that--at is...
(Unintelligible and censored comments from panelists)
Springer: OK. Grace, in fairness, if that is all you guys were saying, you wouldn't even be on the show because that wouldn't be a major issue and people would be agreeing with you.
Rev. Korda: That's right. And isn't that interesting, Jerry?
Grace: Wait. You got it. Jerry, that's exactly it, Jerry!
Springer: But that's not all that you're saying. That's...
Grace: That's exactly it! People will not pay attention to this.
Vermin X: This is you guys. Hello!
Springer: Because he goes on...
Rev. Korda: This is you guys.
Springer: All right, have a seat. Shh. Shh.
Vermin X: Toys 'R' Us. Hello!
Chuck: Holy...
Springer: OK. All right. All right.
Vermin X: This is you guys--consumers.
Grace: Jerry, we are in such desperate times, and what you said is exactly truer People have never heard of the overpopulation issue.
Springer: They're not going to listen to them if they're talking such crap as cannibalism!
Rev. Korda: You're listening! You're listening right now! You're listening! You're here!
Springer: Up next, Grace will make a final decision as to whether or not--What? Up next, Grace...
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: All right. OK, up next, Grace will make a final decision as to whether or not she's going to join the cult. Please stay with us.
(Announcements)
Springer: Welcome back. Thank you. Today we're talking with a woman who wants to join a suicide cannibal cult.
Chuck, first let me ask you, what will you do if Grace follows through with this?
Chuck: Well, I'll I--I think I'm going to lose a lot of respect that I once had for her when we were going out.
Springer: You--you t--OK--you two--wait a second--you two used to be boyfriend and girlfriend, were you not?
Chuck: Yes. Yes, we were.
Springer: OK. Why did you break up?
Chuck: Well, the--there's a lot of pressure--I--I mean, I w--I want children. I'd like to have a--a kid of my own, someone to play ball with or something, you know? And...
Rev. Korda: Why don't you adopt? Why don't you adopt?
Chuck: No, you--you--you...
Rev. Korda: You know how many children there are on this planet?
Grace: Exactly.
Chuck: Because, you know, when I get something, I like to know where...
(Vermin X holds doll and shakes it at Chuck)
Springer: Stop playing with dolls.
Chuck: Put that down! Jiminy...
Vermin X: That's what--is that what you want?
Chuck: Put that down.
Springer: All right. You're sick. Shh. Shh.
Grace: Listen, Jerry, I'll tell you one thing about this guy. He didn't like condoms. You know, I told him...
Rev. Korda: Oh, you don't like condoms, either. That's good, very good.
Grace: Yeah, no kidding.
Springer: All right, do you want--do you want her...
Grace: No kidding. He always wanted to...
Springer: OK, you guys, quiet. I just want to talk to you two for a second.
Chuck: Yes.
Springer: You c--you called--you said to our producers...
Chuck: Mm-hmm.
Springer: ...that you wanted to try to get her back, that you broke up with her because she didn't want anything--to have anything to do with children.
Chuck: No, none whatsoever.
Springer: If you love her, you want her back, you talk to her now. Because all you're talking about now is...
Pastor Kim: Remember this, guys?
Springer: OK, all you're talking about now is--is, you know, what kind of firm is going to promote the cause.
Chuck: Yeah, I know, and I...
Springer: If you love this woman, this is nothing to do with firms. Go for it.
Chuck: I know. I--well, i--it's a matter of getting in with the wrong people. I mean, I really...
Pastor Kim: You love her? You really love her?
Chuck: Put the hanger down!
Grace: Listen--listen, if you loved me, you would have used condoms.
Chuck: Well, you used birth control.
Grace: Right, birth control--all the burden of the woman, every last bit!
Pastor Kim: We have condoms for everybody.
Rev. Korda: Condoms! Condoms!
Pastor Kim: Condoms! Condoms!
Grace: Except for--except for the--the--a vasectomy. Every time you had to use a condom, you whined, you pouted, and then when I brought up the issue of vasectomy, you just, like, got mad at me. You thought I was crazy then.
Chuck: Well, the...
Grace: Now if you're not willing to use condoms...
Chuck: Put that down!
Grace: ...how can you say that you loved me? You were so irresponsible. Just like everybody else...
Chuck: Yeah, well...
Grace: ...you put the responsibility for all the birth control on the woman.
Chuck: ...because I--I was b--I was being monogamous to you, I didn't think we would need a condom if we had...
Grace: Yeah, and if I got pregnant?
Chuck: Well, then, why did...
Grace: Oh, I would just have your child. My choice had nothing to do with it!
Chuck: You were taking birth control. Why didn't you use a female condom?
Grace: I was not--I was not taking b...
Springer: All right. OK, OK, let--OK, I understand.
Chuck: I'm sorry.
Springer: Let's get away from that, then.
Chuck: All right.
Springer: A woman can very well make the decision, either, one, I choose not to have children; two, I'm not going to bear the sole responsibility of not having children, the man has to wear the condom. Those are all woman decisions to make.
Pastor Kim: Social pressures force them to have it.
Springer: However, why do you have to join a cult that preaches suicide and cannibalism to have that view? Why?
Grace: Jerry, I'm joining a cult--if you'd call it a cult--I'm joining an educational organization whose...
Pastor Kim: Jerry, you belong to a cult of normals! These are all your normal zombies! Everybody agrees with you!
Springer: You want this man to--you want this man to educate you?
Pastor Kim: Normals! Normals! The world's going to die...
Springer: Wait. Wait.
Pastor Kim: ...and then you guys are going to cheer!
Chuck: Come on!
Pastor Kim: Nothing's going to be left! Gone!
Grace: Listen, all of you! I'm getting a little bit...
Pastor Kim: It's a black world, a world of nothing but death!
Chuck: Sit down! (Censored)
Grace: I'm getting a little tired of having people imply that I cannot think for myself. I'm a little tired of having you imply that they're controlling my mind, and I'm tired of hearing it from you, too. This is my decision. This is an issue I care about.
Rev. Korda: That's right. That's right. That's right. Because this is about females...
Springer: If--if it is not just your decision...
Pastor Kim: This is a man telling a woman what to do!
Rev. Korda: That's right, this is about female empowerment!
Chuck: Then what are you?
Rev. Korda: This is about...
Pastor Kim: You're a man, too, remember?
Chuck: Huzzah!
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Rev. Korda: OK--OK, I'm a man in a dress and I'm going to tell you what to do. OK.
Springer: You're a man?
Rev. Korda: Sure I am. You'd better believe it. I'm transgendered. That's right. That's right.
Chuck: Oh, man.
Rev. Korda: Oh, you d--oh, you don't like that, OK? Well, I'm transgendered because being transgendered is part of balance, and that's what we're here for, is to balance humans with the other species on the planet. And this (censored) female power, OK? Because this woman is a goddess, and what does being a goddess mean? It means to have power over life and death, the power to control life within your body. She can create life and she should have the power to destroy it, too.
Springer: Yeah.
Rev. Korda: And that's what we're going to talk about later.
Springer: Are you going to join this group?
Rev. Korda: We're going to talk about that. You know what I mean.
Grace: Yes.
Springer: Do you want to join this group?
Grace: Yes!
Springer: OK.
Rev. Korda: We're going to talk about life within your body.
Springer: You still haven't t...
Grace: I'd also like to say I'm the only woman among, one, two, three, four, five, men--are all telling me what I should do and criticizing me. I'm the only woman.
Springer: Then why--hold it.
Chuck: Then why are you being dragged towards that way?
Springer: You can believe anything you want. Where we get upset is when you start preaching to young, impressionable minds that suicide and cannibalism is a good thing. That is dangerous. That is dangerous. And (censored).
Grace: Jerry, that's (censored)!
Rev. Korda: It is dangerous. It is dangerous.
Grace: McDonald's...
Rev. Korda: That's right, because somebody might kill themselves. That's what you're worried about, right? Somebody might kill themselves, is that what we're worried about?
Springer: Yes.
Rev. Korda: OK.
Springer: Yes, I--I worry about it; you're damn right I worry about that.
Rev. Korda: You're worried about it? Well, OK. I might, too. I might, too. I think about it every day.
Springer: Then don't print this garbage in your...
Rev. Korda: Listen to me...
Springer: ...in your brochure!
Rev. Korda: ...I'll print whatever I want. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
Pastor Kim: Yeah, she can.
Vermin X: Hey...
Rev. Korda: I'll print whatever I want because when I look at what's happened on this planet, I feel...
Pastor Kim: This is America.
Springer: So you want her to--she wants to join your group.
Rev. Korda: She wants to join my group. That's right. She wants to join us.
Grace: I also want to...
Pastor Kim: It's OK to eat chickens! It's OK to eat cows! It's OK to slaughter! You laugh! You laugh!
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Rev. Korda: It's OK to eat Jerry! Let's eat Jerry! Let's eat Jerry! Eat Jerry! Eat Jerry! Eat Jerry! Eat Jerry! Come on.
Pastor Kim: It's not OK, what we do to animals...
Springer: All right.
Pastor Kim: ...we do to ourselves!
Grace: Yeah!
Pastor Kim: What they do in--what they did in Nazi Germany is what they do to chickens every day! It's...
Chuck: Excuse me, they're not listening!
Pastor Kim: Yeah!
Rev. Korda: OK. Hold on, hold on, I have a question: What was the first thing Adolf Hitler did when he came to power? First thing?
Springer: He had chicken soup; I don't know.
Rev. Korda: No! No!
Springer: When we come back...
Rev. Korda: Hey, you're right. Hold on. You should go...
Springer: Up next, these guests are here to tell the cult if they really mean what they say, they should start by--well, they say they should start by killing themselves. Well, we'll face that off when we return. Stay with us.
(Announcements)
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: Yeah. Thank you. OK, we've been talking to leaders of this cult. It's basically a suicide cult and a--they believe in cannibalism; they put it in terms of saving the environment. And it seems pretty crazy, and a lot of--and, you know, we're kind of laughing along the way, except that there are people that listen to this, that join the cult, and that's what's scary; that's what's dangerous.
Grace: Jerry, it's not basically a suicide cult.
Springer: Yeah. Well, that's...
Grace: You--you d--haven't bothered doing your homework. You haven't read up on it. You've made it into that.
Springer: Yeah, well, all I did--all we are doing--all we are doing is reading your literature. We're d--reading your address on the radio. That--we are quoting you. You are the guys that have said this...
Vermin X: Out of context; totally out of context.
Springer: OK.
Please welcome the leader of the Creator's Rights Party, Neal Horsley, and two of his supporters, Vauncile and Jane, to the show.
You've said--I understand you don't like what they believe in, but, in fairness, they can believe whatever they want; they shouldn't be trying to recruit people to commit suicide and cannibalism and stuff like that. But they're entitled in this country to believe anything they want. Isn't that true?
Mr. Neal Horsley (Leader of The Creator's Rights Party): Jerry, this was n--no, the First Amendment--Jerry ...
Vermin X: That's like Neal Horsley is entitled to support murderers.
Springer: Wait a second, I want to just talk to him--oh, shut up!
Mr. Horsley: The First...
Springer: Mr. Horsley, go ahead.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: All right. OK, shh. Just answer me.
Mr. Horsley: O--OK. The First Amendment says, Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion. What that meant was the federal government was to get--not get involved in matters of religion and leave it to the states to settle these matters. When the federal government said, "We'll tell you what God's like," they made it so that all of us...
Springer: No, no, no, no, no!
Mr. Horsley: ...had to accept...
Springer: No!
Mr. Horsley: ...the government's definition of God...
Springer: No!
Mr. Horsley: ...that we c--I can't go to--I can't--I've got to let these people believe that they've got...
Springer: Why? They've got...
Mr. Horsley: ...the right to believe what they believe. Yet they're saying...
Springer: Of course they do. This is America! Of course they do.
Pastor Kim: This man wanted to hijack nuclear weapons and besiege the Union...
(Unintelligible comments from panelists and Springer)
Springer: You're allowed to believe what you want.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Mr. Horsley: They have the right to believe they can kill people, Jerry?
Springer: But there's a difference. Shh.
Mr. Horsley: No, there is no difference to--that's what--they're Incas.
Springer: Well, then give me a chance, I'll explain the difference.
Mr. Horsley: They're Incas in the government. OK.
Springer: If he wants to...
Vermin X: This man wants to secede from the Union, hijack the nuclear weapons of Georgia, incite a civil war.
Springer: Do you want to secede from the Union? Do you--do you want to secede from the Union?
Mr. Horsley: And yet he'll preach to me?
Rev. Korda: Look. Here, look. Look what we got. It's a nuclear bomb, Neal. Don't you want to nuke the fags? Isn't that what you want?
Springer: What are you--what are you--OK, shh.
Mr. Horsley: No. No. What I want you to understand is before you will rule this world...
Springer: All right. Everybody, sit down.
Mr. Horsley: ...there are people who will fight you to the death.
Springer: All right.
Mr. Horsley: That's what I want you to understand.
Rev. Korda: Ooh, I'm so scared.
Springer: OK.
Rev. Korda: I got Jesus on my side, man, you can't touch me! I've got Jesus.
Springer: All right.
Rev. Korda: You can't touch me, baby! Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists and Springer)
Chuck: Man, stop...
Springer: Sit down. Have a seat.
Mr. Horsley: This has nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible.
Rev. Korda: Jesus loves me.
Springer: Shh. Shh.
Vermin X: This man wants to arrest faggots.
Rev. Korda: Jesus squirts!
Springer: Shh. Let's hear from the--yes, ma'am, what do--what would you like to say?
Vauncile (Grandmother Who Supports The Creator's Rights Party): I would like to say that there is not enough...
Springer: Let's listen to her. Shh, shh, shh. OK.
Vauncile: ...money ever been minted that would have brought me into the presence of such wicked people. But...
Vermin X: Whoo-hoo!
Grace: All right!
Springer: Let's listen.
Vauncile: But for the love of my Lord Jesus, who did more than this for me...
Pastor Kim: Let's give it to them.
Vauncile: ...that is my sole reason for being here. And I could...
Pastor Kim: We tried Jesus!
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Jane: Let's talk about what we're talking about. Let's talk about what we're talking about.
Mr. Horsley: Let's talk about children.
Jane: This is serious. There are children that are y...
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Pastor Kim: Jane, you have nine children! You have nine children.
Springer: Shh. Will you let...
Jane: I do have nine children.
Springer: Shh. Be quiet. I want to--I want to hear what she says. Then you can answer.
Jane: I do have nine children. I do have nine children.
Mr. Horsley: Yeah, but she loves people.
Springer: OK.
Jane: I--I have nine children. You probably have a--you probably have a tape of one of my children. I had to bring the youngest here.
Springer: OK.
Grace: Listen...
Jane: She's five weeks old.
Grace: Let me just say something to Neal! I need to say something to Neal! Neal...
Springer: I want you to talk to me--I want you--just wait. I want her to talk to Grace.
Grace: Neal says she loves people. If you...
Springer: You talk to Grace. What do you want to say to Grace? What do you--OK.
Grace: ...love people...
Springer: OK.
Grace: ...you will not make any more people because the world is full of people...
Springer: OK, let her talk to you.
Grace: ...that needs all--that need--that need all kinds of care!
Springer: Shh. All right. OK. You talk to her or I'll clear the stage.
Grace: If you are selfish, you will have more kids.
Springer: OK. You talk to Grace. What do you want to say to Grace?
Vauncile: I would just like to say to Grace that Jesus died for you and he loves you just as much as he does me.
Rev. Korda: Lame--that's so lame.
Vermin X: He committed suicide for you, ma'am.
Vauncile: ...and Jesus is--well, maybe--maybe he did.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Vermin X: Jesus committed suicide. God's so sad.
Vauncile: Maybe he did.
Rev. Korda: And you ate him! You guys ate him! It was cannibalism. Didn't you?
Vauncile: But I came--I came here to acknowledge him...
Rev. Korda: Every day in the Catholic Church, you eat his body and you drink his blood!
Springer: We'll have more when we come back. Stay with us.
(Announcements)
Unidentified Crew Member #1: Guys, please, please, help me out, audience, please. This way, this way.
Vermin X: All right. This is going rather well.
Crew Member #1: Keep them separated.
Unidentified Woman #1: I know.
Crew Member #2: OK. Got to keep them separated.
Springer: I tell you what, in the--i--during the break, I asked everyone else on the stage to leave. They'll be back later in the show. But now I just wanted a chance to talk to Grace one-on-one. Because, Grace, in a sense, is the focus of the show because she is a--a woman who is making a decision whether or not to join this organization. We call it a cult; you suggest it's something different. And I guess without all the screaming and yelling, you seem like a bright woman with strong views.
Grace: (Nods her head).
Springer: What I don't understand is, even assuming that your position is, "I don't want to have children; there are too many people in the world; I don't want to kill animals; I'll be a vegetarian," why can't you have those views, which are very well-respected, without going to the extreme measure of joining this group, which, you've got to admit, is a little out to lunch, no? Go ahead.
Grace: What this group is doing--the reason I want to join--is that they are bringing up the issue of overpopulation to places that it wouldn't have been brought before; for example, here. I think it's really important. I think that we live in desperate times.
Springer: But he gets on the air--and I'm not making this up, OK?
Grace: Mm-hmm.
Springer: I'm not making it up. I'm reading you a quote--he was on radio in Los Angeles, the second largest city in America--a heck of a lot of young people listen to this stuff--and he is saying--and I said it in the beginning, this is his quote, Reverend Korda: "If you are depressed or ill or feel burdened by today's world problems, let me suggest a way to give your life new meaning: Kill yourself." He's telling pe--kids to get guns, to have razors--"Rope is good, car exhaust is good." Please don't sit there as an intelligent woman and tell me that this is a positive, good thing to do. It isn't.
Grace: What is a positive thing to do is to give people control of their own death.
Springer: Telling some kid that he can kill himself is not the good lesson of control to the kid. Come on!
Grace: Well, it's--Jerry, let's look at what--let's look at what Neal Horsley is saying. He's saying, "Let's kill other people. Let's kill, like, the entire United States so that we can have God's rule."
Springer: I'm not suggesting that just everyone else is right, also. No, there are other people that are wrong, too. That's just as crazy as what they're saying. But what are you doing suggesting that this is a good--that this is a--you know what? You make what is normally a pretty positive message, such as, perhaps, not killing animals, not procreating, all that kind of stuff--that may be issues of validity--you are making it absurd. People listen to that group and they say, "You know what? Everything else you're saying is crazy. You're destroying your own beliefs."
Grace: Jerry, I think people misunderstand this issue.
Springer: Well, of course, because you've got a looney out there running with a chicken. Go ahead.
Grace: Jerry, I do believe that suicide is everybody's right. If somebody wants to kill themselves, I will not step in their way. I hope--you know, I would--I would--I hope that that would be because they've considered all the other options, but people have and people do want to choose to kill themselves.
Springer: Oh, some 17-year-old kid, let--let's say, is having problems with his sexual identity, or just...
Grace: Because he's homosexual because people like Horsley want to (censored) arrest him.
Springer: OK. So--so your idea is to suggest to these young people, who are confused, who are hurt, who are feeling bad about themselves, whose self-esteem may be low at the moment, who maybe lost a girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, all of a sudden, they're feeling depressed, and suddenly, you're suggesting that this is an option for these young people? That's exactly the kind of message they shouldn't be hearing.
Grace: Listen, Jerry, suicide is always an option for everyone. It is really condescending to tell people what they may or may not do with their lives. That's why we have people that want to die on machines, that's why we have people--it's like you're not even allowed--you have no power in this life.
Springer: Tell me about the cannibalism thing.
Grace: Cannibalism is the eating of flesh.
Springer: I know what it is. Why do you--why...
Grace: No, Jerry, it's the eating...
Springer: Tell me how that makes a--how--tell me how that--preaching that can possibly have any relevance to anything that is anywhere near sane.
Grace: Listen, do you eat meat?
Springer: I'll repeat it: If you want people to stop eating meat, preach vegetarianism. But what...
Grace: That's what we're doing!
Springer: No, you're suggesting that it's also OK--they are suggesting...
Grace: Mm-hmm.
Springer: ...that it's also OK for humans to eat human flesh. That's stupid.
Grace: But listen, Jerry--Jerry, if it's OK to eat a cow, if it's OK to factory farm cows, to raise cows in what are basically concentration camps, if that's OK, then it's just as OK to eat people who are already dead, who are going to be embalmed and going to be thrown into the ground.
Springer: It's like saying--no, no--it's like saying--it's like saying, "I think it's horrible to kill blacks, so from now on, let's go out and kill Hispanics because--that's bad, also."
Grace: I'm not talking about killing people; we're talking about if people are dead. What do we do with dead bodies, Jerry? What do we do with them? We spend--we throw them away, we embalm them, we put them in a sealed box.
Springer: What good comes out of cannibalism? Tell me that. In one sentence, what good comes out of cannibalism?
Grace: People that want to eat meat...
Springer: What?
Grace: People that want to eat meat out of cannibalism would get their meat; we'd save having this hermetically sealed box in the ground. They'd get their meat...
Springer: So they should eat another human being? You think that's good?
Grace: If that person is dead, go for it. They're dead already.
Springer: You know what? You know what? It's why when you say some things that may make some sense, you lose the entire universe; nobody believes what you say because...
Grace: Jerry?
Springer: ...what you say there is so crazy they're not going to believe the serious things you say.
Grace: Yes, Jerry, I don't--Jerry, come here. Jerry, you would not have had us on your show if we were only talking about the population issue. I would love to talk about the population issue.
Springer: Maybe not on this show, because I admit--I admit...
Grace: I would love to; that's what this is all about for me. You called it, I Want to Join a Suicide Cult; I'm joining an educational group that's talking about overpopulation, and I'm answering all these stupid questions about suicide.
Springer: Oh, there are all kinds of organizations in this world that talk about overpopulation that don't talk about, "Let's have cannibalism." Come on.
OK, when we're--when we come back, we're going to bring back our other guests and we'll have questions from the audience. Stay with us.
(Announcements)
Springer: Welcome back. Grace, before I get to questions for the audience, why did you decide to change--take off your dress and change your outfit?
Chuck: And why have you never done it for me?
Springer: What was that about?
Grace: Well, we were supposed--I was--I was instantly inducted into the church on this show. I actually came to this show to be inducted t--into the church. That's specifically what I came here for.
Springer: Yeah, well, I don't want you inducted on this show. Yeah.
Grace: And this is part of the ritual.
Rev. Korda: That's right.
Springer: What?--to be in the show, you got to take off your--to be in the cult, you got to take off your clothing?
Grace: No, not at all.
Rev. Korda: It sure helps. And we--and we hope that when you join, Jerry, you'll take off your clothes, too.
Chuck: I--I d--I didn't wish to hear that. Please, I...
Springer: Believe me, if you saw me, I'd be the poster child against cannibalism.
Chuck: Oh.
Springer: OK. Yes?
Grace: You're probably not tasty, anyway.
Chuck: Oh. Oh.
Rev. Korda: Aw.
Vauncile: I would just like to ask these people if they are...
Springer: Shh...
Vauncile: ...truly sincere about their, quote, "religion," unquote. And if you truly believe what you're saying, are you willing to die right here on this stage now and be quartered and be put into freezers for food?
Vermin X: Will--will you stone us to death, ma'am? Will--will you stone us to death like the good Lord would instruct you to, stoning Sodomites?
Grace: Listen, I--I--I don't want to commit suicide. As I said before, suicide is a pillar of the church. It is not a commandment.
Vermin X: Helpful hint.
Grace: If I choose, at some point, that I want to die, it is my right to take control over my own death.
Vermin X: Euthanasia.
Springer: Go ahead. Shh.
Unidentified Woman #2: I just want to say that I don't remember her name. She--you seem like a very strong woman, but I think what's happening here is they are like a brainwashing group, just like all s--they're like skinheads and everything else, and I think you're getting brainwashed. I think you're very strong, and I think you should find other--other organizations that support your beliefs, not this one. They're no good.
Grace: I have two responses to that.
Springer: Yes? Shh. What's your response?
Grace: One of them is I am--I am involved with the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. Everybody, look into that. Another one is--once again, I'm being condescended to by you: I'm being brainwashed; I can't think for myself. It's very insulting.
Jane: Honey, you insulted yourself when you took off your clothes on national TV.
Unidentified Woman #3: My question is: First of all, why can't you be who you really are? You're all up there being who you can't. My second thing to say is: Have you all eaten human flesh, and if not, why are you up here preaching that it's OK to be...
Grace: We're vegetarians; we're asking people not to eat flesh.
Woman #3: Then why are you pro--why are you saying that it's OK to be...
Rev. Korda: We already answered about--I'll answer that question.
Woman #3: ...to eat from human flesh and you're up there throwing babies around the stage eating them?
Grace: No, no, it's--look, don't you understand? It's not OK; we're disgusted by eating flesh; we're disgusted by eating animal flesh. What we're saying is...
Springer: Then you wouldn't put out a brochure which tells people how to do it.
Grace: ...that when you eat flesh, you're a cannibal. What'd he say?
Chuck: You put out a brochure promoting...
Unidentified Man #2: I want to say, the guy in the green--I don't believe that you're strong enough to stick with her. Because if you was strong enough to stick with her, she wouldn't be in this predicament like she is now. You're not a man to stick with her.
Chuck: She's a strong person.
Man #2: So why you not with her now?
Chuck: She doesn't want children! I mean...
Grace: What are you--you're--are you saying that that man...
Springer: Thank God!
Grace: ...the man should control the woman? What planet are you from?
Chuck: No.
Grace: I...
Unidentified Panelist: Next question.
Springer: Please, let's not encourage these people to procreate.
Unidentified Woman #4: I would like--I'd like--I'd like to know if anybody dressed in black has ever been on any anti-psychotic medications, in psychiatric institutions, or in jail? Because you belong there.
Grace: Not me.
Rev. Korda: That's very nice. Let's talk about that. Can I answer that?
Mr. Horsley: OK, Jerry...
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Mr. Horsley: There was a time when we were--people could actually...
Vermin X: He was in jail.
Mr. Horsley: ...stop insanity by arresting people who are advocating that which ultimately destroys people.
Rev. Korda: However...
Springer: OK, finally, are you--Grace, are you--you want to join this group?
Grace: I already have.
Springer: You already have.
I'll be back with a final thought. Stay with with us.
(Announcements)
Springer: Thank you. Let me take this opportunity to thank you all for being with us. It's certainly different, what we heard, and--but this is America and you have a right to at least express an opinion.
You know, I suspect most of us think this is all crazy, that these are all a bunch of loonies playing with something short of a full deck. Clearly, to the extent that these folks can influence vulnerable and impressionable minds to do destructive and harmful things, they are, of course, dangerous. Cults are, by popular understanding, viewed to be extremist, and, certainly, what we saw today falls into that category. But in a nation where we so pride ourselves in freedom of belief, worship and religion, where do we draw the line between religion and cult?
I mean, look at all our major religions. They all seem to involve a charismatic leader who has personally communicated with God, who demands to be accepted on faith, whose traditions have included some pretty tough and, in some cases, brutal sacrifices, whose literature is steeped in stories or parables that seem to require great leaps of faith, be that Christianity, Judaism, Islam--you name it. Indeed, we'd be horribly offended, and justifiably so, if people called us, because of our religious beliefs, crazy. And yet there is a difference here. We cross the line from religion, which has total freedom here, to cult, where, suddenly, it's not just a matter of what people believe.
Believe what you want, but there is a call within the doctrine from a self-anointed leader to destructive, life-threatening behavior. There is also--not necessarily in this cult, but certainly in others, there is often, through brainwashing, psychological and otherwise, pressure to never leave the group once having joined; to cut off, to varying degrees, association with one's family and former friends.
The point is, cults are dangerous and not entitled to the protection of religion, not because of what they believe, but because of what they entice their adherents to do.
Till next time, take care of yourself and each other.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
(Excerpt from Grace's induction after the show)
Rev. Korda: Grace, it's been a long day. We were forced to deputize you on the show, so we're going to induct you into the Church of Euthanasia right here, now, briefly. And we'll start by asking you are you pregnant?
Grace: No.
Rev. Korda: OK. Do you have any genetic material outside your body that you know--that you don't know about? Do you have eggs frozen in a fertility clinic, anything like that?
Grace: No.
Rev. Korda: OK, then, Grace, repeat after me: I...
Grace: I...
Rev. Korda: ...Grace Petro..
Grace: ...Grace Petro..
Rev. Korda: ...do hereby vow...
Grace: ...do hereby vow...
Rev. Korda: ...to not procreate...
Grace: ...to not procreate...
Rev. Korda: ...for as long as I shall live.
Grace: ...for as long as I shall live.
Rev. Korda: Grace, you are now, and always will be, a member of the Church of Euthanasia.
Grace: Whoo! Whoo!
Chuck: Whoo! Well, I'm going to have something to tell the kids.